silverthorne | Observations...

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Observations...

There was a long rambling post here that served no purpose other than me being upset, and by proxy, upsetting whoever read it.

It's erased. So at least I've learned something. Not so sure I still won't upset someone with this, but I'm trying not to here, all right? Just trying to get a wider perspective than I apparently have.

So...okay then.

Will someone please be kind enough to tell me what would be considered appropriate ways to help fix this situation? I'm understanding the reasoning about white america needing to be held accountable for the 'crimes of the past' as well as the present, but what I'm not getting a clear idea on, is what, exactly, I can do as a person to help rectify it. Since I can't change my skin color, my racial inheritance, or what the guys who have a lot more money and power than me are doing, what can I do as a person? What are you expecting? My own ideas of treating (and thinking of, despite the examples I used first post) people as people and not skins is apparently not enough.

No, this is not sarcasm, this is a person who's been up all night reading on this and getting a lot of the 'it's our/white people's fault and we/white people need to fix it' part, but not finding a whole lot of practical application for the average person living an everyday life. Except for talking it to death. Which still does nothing to help the situation. So I'm asking for a succinct run down.

What can be done?
What do you do?
What would you want done?

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Really, there's not a damn thing you can do to chage the way the world is.

Just keep treating everyone with respect, and you're already 10 times better than your average person.

I'm not so worried about being 'better' as in doing right by people.

But yeah, I guess so.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything that can be done for at least another 50 years...and that's a generous estimate.

All the people who are still alive and remember segregation and the N word as okay need to die out and stop teaching that prejudiced viewpoint to other people.

By the same token, all the people who are still alive and are propagating Whitey is Evil, The Man Keeps Me Down and so on also need to die out and stop teaching that prejudiced viewpoint to other people.

Unfortunately, not much can be done about the religious viewpoint that follows these same lines: brown people are muslims, muslims are bad; gay people are bad, transgender people, alternate lifestyle people, any people who aren't just like us are bad. Because even when the current generation of those die out, they've already taught their children who are growing to adulthood even now with this poison in their minds.

The other problem is as you observed elsewhere: people hate the "PC" aspect of it, and so are rebelling against it by refusing to do the respectful thing.

So in short -- I don't really have a solution. I wish I did, but I wanted to let you know I understand your stress, because although there are black people who will say it's the white person's fault, there is some fault on our side of the racial line too for hanging onto anger for things done to us generations ago that are not still being done today.

Yeah, and that's the rub. How do you fix it when people are not ready to fix it.

I forgot--but they want it to be fixed anyway?

Unfortunately, yes.

They want the fix, but they want it magically. They don't want to have to face the change, because change is scary, and hard work.

You also get the messy business of wanting some kind of payback in there, somewhere, or at least that's what I've been told. :/

Yes, I forgot.

There are people who want the current day, adjusted for inflation, compensation better than the 40 Acres and a Mule that freed blacks got when the war was over.

That... would be a lot of money.

And I'm tempted to say would only really help fuel more racially-based ire; "someone's getting what I'm not based on skin color, when they personally didn't earn it".

I don't disagree.

The logic, though, is that such people demanding such compensation are owed it because of generations of labor paid only in abuse, rape, and the sale of their children out of their own families at the whim of the master.

Such people believe that such compensation is owed because nobody really wanted to give them darkies anything when the war was over, and there are still those who insist The South Will Rise Again.

In retort to what you say about "someone getting what I'm not based on skin color when they didn't earn it," the response would be something along the lines of "everything you have you got off the blood of my ancestors without personally earning it."

Oh, absolutely. I understand that viewpoint. Though when you translate it to modern-day words, and since we're realistically so far removed from those generations/families or whathaveyou, any kind of reparations offered to blacks would cause a HUGE outcry, and not just from whites.

*spends a minute giggling at the icon in current context, especially since it's ...y'know...Snow White*

Agreed.

I actually had a Civil War history teacher in college who apologized to the ancestors of the blacks in the class for what her ancestors did.

There were like three of us, including me, who went, "None of us were alive then. We can't go back and prevent it. You didn't personally do anything directly to us. All the apology is doing is keeping it in the mind of those who want to remember -- and since they want to remember, anything would bring it to mind for them. Let's get on with the class, and consider yourself forgiven."

(And look, she's so aptly horrified!)

That's a good way to look at it. Ugh this is all so sticky. :/

it is, which is what I was trying to point out--the more you hinge it on skin color and not just flat out piss-poor current treatment of human beings within a coeity everyone is supposedly sharng, it gets mired in this sort of confusion. People spend more time pointing fingers and holding folks accountable for being race-related to the actual assholes than working together to fix the problem and getting rid of said assholes.

And that's why I keep getting hung up on the racial label that's applied to the problem.

What racial label?

'White Privilege'.

The term hinges on being born white, and therefore assumed to automatically have privileges other races don't in regards to safety, voting rights, fear or lack thereof and other advantages.

It also automatically negates your right to point out it's a race-based term if you happen to be white. Because that's autmotically taken as a refusal to accept responsibility for the damage your race has done to other races over the course of history.

Even if you do acknowledge that things have got to change, and treating anyone in certain ways based on the color of their skin is dead wrong.

Alright. I'm going to be honest, this conversation is getting cyclical and it's kind of frustrating me.

I'm going to ask you to define the "it" I'm hinging skin color on, or vice versa. Again -- white privilege is not synonymous with economic privilege, though it can contribute to it and often does. White privilege isn't even the same as (intentional, pre-meditated) racism; the system to which it contributes is "racist" by way of discrimination based on race. White privilege is not the problem, it is a SYMPTOM of the problem, which is the ongoing institutional racial discrimination in favor of whites in America.

The term hinges on being born white, and therefore assumed to automatically have privileges other races don't in regards to safety, voting rights, fear or lack thereof and other advantages.

No, it assumes you are given those privileges by other people (most commonly other white people) because of the color of your skin.

It also automatically negates your right to point out it's a race-based term if you happen to be white.

I have no idea where you got this, honestly. Can you explain why?

Because that's autmotically taken as a refusal to accept responsibility for the damage your race has done to other races over the course of history.

...or this.

Even if you do acknowledge that things have got to change, and treating anyone in certain ways based on the color of their skin is dead wrong.

Well yes, it is. Positively or negatively, intentionally treating person x a certain way because of physically difference is discrimination, which technically means "the act of discerning or noting differences". But just "discrimination" =/= racism.

Because it still tags on the word 'white'.

And last time I looked, that's still a race and skin color.

Well yes, because it's specifically talking about white people and their effect on society. What word should we use?

coeity was supposed to be society

erf...that just keeps the ball rolling though, back and forth. 'I did this for you, now reward me!'

And that just moves the problem around, not resolves it.

Yeah, not good for anyone involved.

First things first: White people are not solely responsible for the way things are. Slavery, for instance, was commonplace in both pre-columbian South America under the Aztecs and many indiginous Tribes, and also common amoungst African tribes before whites came there, and VERY common in the Middle East. The Romans, in fact, took the concept of wartime slavery from the Babylonians, and from the Jews.

Whites did not invent slavery, and the enslavement of the blacks could not have happened if not for black tribesmen taking members of enemy tribes prisoner, and selling them to white (and muslim) slavers.

First thing you can do, is know the REAL history of what whites are being accused of. It's not any one race's fault, and so it's not any one race's job to "fix it". We must all fix it.

Playing into racial victimology does no good for either the 'oppressor race', or for the 'victim race'. It just engenderes mutual loathing, and codependency, and you know from a personal standpoint how that ends up. Don't swallow the racial guilt. Do what you can do as a living soul to balance the wheel, but don't buy into Original, or Racial sin, sister. That way lies hell, and nothing else.

I am also aware of all that as well. I suppose I'm looking for an acceptable and true balance, but that's hard to find until you let everyone have their say.

*hugs* I'm not feeling guilt so much as frustration. I want a real understanding.

Also...I think some of the problem, (and what makes me wince), is the idea that since it was the whites most recently (and 'most widespread'), that somehow it's just their job and their responsibility. Our examples can be drudged up from recognizable and recent history--so that makes it fair game as a reason.

Add to that the perception of whites have the highest population (Which unfortunately will also mean their most dominant in their local culture and region and most often be the folks in power because of that--sheer numbers do a lot in the arena of who can affect what), and it gets a lot harder to not present that as a reason for other races suffereing.

And there is lingering racism that effects people and how safe, equal and listened to they feel. If you're in the thick of it, you don't see past it. (and if you're not in it, and never see it, yeah, it's hard to imagine)

All of this leads to hanging it on one race--both blame and the expectation of assuming responsibility for it.

Which...at least from the view point I was trying to come from, is no more productive than the 'I did something for you, now pay me for it' attitude. Again, it shifts the problem (and hatred and fear in this case) around, but doesn't eliminate it.

I hear you. I do. And I have run into the attitude you're talking about headlong, and I understand you frustration with it.

What I'm saying, is that my solution to it is to look steadfastly forward. When someone with an axe to grind comes at me in a rage over my skin colour, I try to talk to them about what they are, and could be doing to improve the balance, for themselves, and their children. And then I tell them what I am doing to improve the balance. And I try not to let them get into games of Top My Trauma, whether personally, or racially, telling them straight out that the sins of any race are too great for any man or woman to answer to, and if things are going to get better, they'll get that way because of people thinking about the future, not the past.

Some don't like it, but I've found that they tend not to stick around once they learn that I won't accept the guilt they want to hit me with. Because people like that are usually not willing to give up their treasured feeling of oppression, and actually work it out. (Yes, generalization there, and so inherently flawed, however also containing much validity.)

Hey there.

This is a good question. I think people who are trying to answer that tend to explore/discuss these things in anti-racist communities and conferences. I think.

debunkingwhite might be a very good place, maybe even a safe space, to ask that question.

Added to flist for reading. Thank you.

You're welcome.

This is something I mean to study myself. (http://community.livejournal.com/debunkingwhite/463231.html?thread=8359039#t8359039)

There's a variety of viewpoints promulgated there.

Again, thank you.

You need to remember that any extreme is bad and that by noting still the racial differences - OMG I'm white and I'm bad - You're still promoting a chasm between people based on the colour of their skin and not their true ethnicity or the very person that they are.

One should not look at life as - I'm white and I'm evil of more anymore than they should see it as I'm white and that makes me special. See beyond colour, don't continue to make it an issue.

Not to kick up a new stink, but seeing beyond color -- colorblindness? -- that's a... pretty exclusively white ideology. White people are the only ones who are able to, because of that privilege... our social standing is really the only one that for all intents and purposes lets us ignore race without any repercussion.

Just saying.

You're assuming one, that I'm white. I'm not. I'm Navajo, German and Welsh. That said, I have also been nearly hospitalized for being white in the wrong place at the wrong time - Hello SoCal during the Rodney King riots.

I've been attacked for being pagan, for being gay and for my beliefs on race. I do not hold it against those that were ignorant, nor do I think the ignorance is a racial thing. Yes, three black girls beat me nearly into the hospital. Do I hate black people for this? No. I don't even hate the girls that did it. Do I hate Christians because my four year old was nearly assualted because her mommy is satanic? No.

If you keep making it a bloody issue, it will always be an issue. I have never owned slaves, my ancestors were slaves, my ancestors were also part of the Third Reich. I am not part of the Third Reich so I don't feel I need to make reperations for what ancestors I never knew did. I merely have respect for each person for being the person they are, or dislike them for the person they are. I don't see colour as a reason to hate, or apologize. My skin tone happens to be peachy, verging on red because I spent all day outside. I don't feel that is something to apologize for when, on a whole, I am a good person that works to make change to make this a better place.

Actually, I have no idea what color you are. That "our" was referring to me + white people + Anne, because we're white.

If you keep making it a bloody issue, it will always be an issue.

That's true, but ignoring a large issue that is currently working to undermine and oppress people in the country I live, every day, just because people are socialized not to see it? I'm not a "minority" so speaking for them here is tentative at best, but for a HUGE number of people in this country, they can't just "see past it". That's... yeah, I think that deserves to be made an "issue" of. It's not as simple as just being colorblind and hoping it will go away.

Neither is making up for actions you did not do. Change the way the country now is run, the way it is handled, but don't apologize for something your ancestors may or may not did.

Yes, those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat but there is a difference between knowledge and wallowing. Making "being white" out to be a bad thing is no better than ostracizing someone else for their race or colour.

I'm not saying ignore it, I'm saying teach knowledge rather than obsessing about the past actions. I can teach my daughter that she is white and therefor will get things better and must fight against, or I can teach her to try her best, work hard, and see people for what is inside of them, colour be damned.

There is a huge world of difference between ignoring it and being an ostrich and obsessing about the wrong issues. Making white people out to be bad is no better than making blacks, or orientals or anyone else out to be bad simply because of their skin colour.

Chances are we all have ancestors that did shitty things to other people. Many of us have family now that does the same thing. We have to be accountable for our own actions. There is a difference between changing the world and taking the weight of it onto your shoulders.

White privilege, (institutional and otherwise) racial discrimination of all types, is not about what happened "then", in the past -- it's about what is happening now, and will continue to happen until people actually learn that it IS happening and do something to stop it. You can't "change the way it's handled" unless people realize that there is a problem in the first place, which they are apparently loathe to.

"Past actions" have nothing to do with this. They way people act today, does.

What "wrong" issues am I/others obsessing about? I'd say the fact that there are people by and large receiving preferential treatment because of their race is a pretty big issue. And actually, no, comparing the current social standing of any race (which ties into their economic standing, their cultural mores, etc.) to any other race is incorrect and fallacious no matter how you slice it, considering each of them had and continue to have very different, distinct histories and cultures, not to mention timelines. It's not comparable. Apples and oranges.

I'm really curious -- who is making white people out to be "bad"? That seems to be a very common misconception when talks like this crop up. White people aren't a hivemind. We don't all fall in lockstep because we have the same color skin. There is, as you said, a "world of difference" between villainizing a group and presenting a breakdown of how that group is operating on a different level than everyone else in the society in which they operate and live. White privilege is a phenomenon that (unfairly) benefits white people, not a meeting of the minds that we all consciously contribute to in an effort to impede everybody else's progress.

Yep.

It happens today. Is happening today. Will happen today. It's stressful. Like, did you hear about that poor kid who was sentenced to 7 years for pushing a hall monitor? She did it on purpose, which she admits. But the judge who sentenced her to 7 years sentenced a white kid with probation for burning down a house. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703120170mar12,1,1921178.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)

Or about the guy in Harrison County who was beaten to death by a prison guard. That news didn't make the national media.

Or about the time I was stuck in Shreveport at 3 o'clock in the morning, and the Avis attendant refused to issue me a rental car, even though I had a reservation. And that was last June.

Totally OT, but cna you do me a favor? I made Lee several CD's a few months back, and although she was going to let me know if they showed, she never got back to me...so I'm wondering of she got them, and if they work (because I found out the set I have here only works on certain CD players....)

Would you be willing to ask her or something and let mw know? I would appreciate knowing if I still owe her CD's or not...

Sure thing. I should talk with her tonight so I will totally get back with you.

Thank you! She was looking forward to them, and she wasnt home when they got there and the notation at DHL was that they left the package on the porch with no signature.

I think the single piece of writing I've found most useful in dealing with/counteracting my own privilege in a productive manner is this essay (http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146). I hope you can also get something out of it. (Note: it speaks of generic privilege, so it's good for any kind: white privilege, male privilege, class, able-bodied, American, etc).

Thank you once again. I'll read it when I get home.

...Just out of curiosity, how did you find my RL LJ?

Combo of BPRS when you used to post to it, and methinks Will mentioned you? This weekend was the first time I commented, anyway.

Will...Will...Leon-mun?

Yeah, I'm curious. ^^

Nope! Emma Frost's mun!

And no, if you don't know how she knows of you, I don't either. *g*

Ah, heh. I know of two 'Wills', so I always think of her by her full name to keep from confusing myself. ^^

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It boils down to I think we need better terminology

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This is just what I've been reading...

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