Silverthorne

I wouldn't get so damned frustrated if the people yelling would at least acknowledge that every damned race has gone through this, and will likelt go through this again in the future...until we all quit pointing fingers at the fucking skin color (and yeah, I'll say it--I just did exactly that anyway), and pointing at the behavior.

I also wouldn't be so damned frustrated if I hadn't just spent ten minutes on the phone with a hispanic that was 'I know how to speak english, but I don't feel like speaking it right now'...and then still expecting me to be able to help her. At least until she cussed at me and hung up when I asked if she could at least slow down a little (because yeah, my spanish is crap).

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I don't think they're saying "white people are horrible things", but hey...

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No, but they're targeting the white nurses to learn all of this. And if the book were really a comprehensive book, it should include the mainstream american 'white' culture as well--and yeah, I will say that, because we have just as many people from Jamiaca and Haiti and India and Mexico working that floor as white people.

We're expected to conform to all of their standards and cultures. The reverse is considered us being narrow-minded and bigoted. You cna get written up. So it's still inequality.

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I have no idea about what the book says or the people where you work, but rather your comment about "white people [being] horrible things".

Considering you live in a country from where white culture is most dominant, why would they have to include it, also considering most of the nurses that are being targeted/trained from the book are white, as you said? Why would they have to learn it?

But anyway, I don't mean any offense, but I don't see where you're getting the "white people are horrible" thing. White supremacy and white privilege aren't the same thing.

From: (Anonymous)

Was most dominant. We aren't as dominant as we were, which is no big deal; thing is, people still insist we are.

You're right in that 'white' people don't need to learn about 'white' people--my beef is that it's just them having to learn about everyone else. Which would make sense if, you know, all of the nurses in my hospital were white.

Thing is? 30% are white. That's it. The rest are black (and yes, there is an entire chapter of things like 'look them in the eyes when you talk to them because...' and 'Never call them african american, because they are not all from Africa (I think that's a no brainer?). ) It's not just 'cultural' training, it honestly seems insulting--both for the nurses who have to take this class (they're being given no credit for being able to, you know, act like polite human beings), and to the races that are talked about in the book.

As for the 'white people are horrible', I see this as an extension of other things I have read by other people discussing 'white supremacy' and 'white privledge'...and many of them tend to combine the two. It's also rarely about other races (Although other races happily chime in on the 'whites are horrible' chorus).

See, thing is? Only a small portion of the nursing staff is essentially being put through 'sensitivity training' on this (that's the polite term, there).

Not the blacks. Not the nurses from India. Not the hispanics. Even though I would hazard a guess that they are about as well informed about cultures other than their own as the white nurses are. And I'm sorry, you can argue that there are more whites than anything else in America, but quite frankly, if one American has to do this, then all of them should.

And that's where I'm at. If that doesn't make sense, then I'm out of explaining ability.

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I'm actually about 99% convinced we are still the dominant culture, or at least the driving force behind the dominant American culture as it is right now. An overwhelming portion of the shareholders in the largest companies that fuel our economy and entertainment industries are white -- whose interests do you think they'll consider first? "Our" culture has become so widespread that it's nearly invisible. It has so permeated our mass media that you can't distinguish one from the other any more. White people in entertainment, news, and all other outlets are the "default"; "ethnic" female performers' beauty is gaged by how light their skin is or how Caucasoid their features are. American "White" culture, as globular and trickily-identified a mass it is for what it's worth, is still the default.

White supremacy and white privilege are not even close to being the same thing, and anybody who proposes they are is sadly mistaken. White supremacy is about dehumanizing other races, white privilege is the phenomenon of whites getting preferential treatment and consideration to the detriment of other races, whether it be conscious or not. And it's rarely about other races because, as US-centric as it is, whites are really the only group that hold widespread systematic power on such a scale that they could hypothetically -- and HAVE, historically -- used that power to hold down the progress of others for whatever reason (such as the examples of shareholders up there.) That is what privilege is. Not white supremacy.

I'm confused -- are the rest of the nurses black, or are there other races of nurses as well? Like I said, I have no idea how your hospital works and the dynamics therein. I'm mainly addressing your point about white people.

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Live in Texas or Arizona for a while. You perception of 'white is dominant' will change dramatically--white shareholders or not. (I wish I could show you the photo gallery of our hospital higher ups--yeah, there are whites, but also blacks and, predominently, people from various places in India.)

A lot of people do equate the two, and that is the part of the problem.

And thank you for the definition, because I was really starting to wonder.

The nurses are black, hindu, other folks from India, hispanic, etc. It's a pretty even distribution--in a 'rich' neighborhood (or at least upper middle class), and the clientel is the same mix. There are just as many rich of 'other' ethinic groups in this place as there are whites. In my department, my boss is hispanic and black, one of the guys is hispanic, the other man is black (and incidentally, is the one that's rude to everyone else in the place, is constantly on break, and will drag his shift work out every single day so that he doesnt have to help with extra assignements everyone is expected to work at. Sadly, it's a coincidence that he's black, but by the same token? last guy in his job was white and doing the same thing and was gone in a month. This guy? He's on his third year here).

And...I suppose I would be more inclined to buy into 'white priviledge' if the jobs I've worked down here did what you descibed. Thing is, I'm actually in the minority role...right down to getting complaints addressed and problems fixed (or not). If I complain (and, incidentally, the 'racial' examples I used for skyward were for a direct purpose and as an illustration, which was bad on my part but too late now) about a fellow worker for not doing their job (or being rude), if they're white? They get written up ASAP (and fired within a few weeks if they keep it up). Not white? Don't always get written up. Rarely get fired. And if they're sure you're the one that reported them, will proceed to be as rude as they can get away with for months.

So yeah, I see preferential treatment...and it's all about keeping people who are not white happy and not feeling like they're being picked on for their race. White folk though? Have been known to come into work, and get fired for something they did the day before (and that the non-white nurses have been doing repeatedly for a long time) and be escorted out by noon.

So yeah, I'm kinda leary of the whole 'white priviledge' thing both because of my own experiences and because honestly, what's being described is a small percentage of even the white population. Annnnnnnd the rest of us whites? In the same damned boat with the non-whites screaming about white priviledge.

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Live in Texas or Arizona for a while. You perception of 'white is dominant' will change dramatically--white shareholders or not.

No, it wouldn't. You've stumbled into something that's kind of an area of expertise/interest of mine, or at least my major (that being Sociology, and the stratifications of race/class therein, and the resulting correlations between). And now that I've said that, I'll muck something up bigtime and look like an idiot. ;)

I do agree that white people are not 100% dominant everywhere, all of the time. However, you've set up a bit of a false dichotomy; it's not a case of "white people are dominant everywhere or they're not dominant anywhere". There is a liberal, ivy-tower theorem that says people of other races cannot be racist against white people, or labeled as "racist", and I definitely disagree with that. However, the instances of individual racism that you're no doubt experiencing don't even begin to shift the dominant paradigm, and that is that white people maintain systematic, macro-scale power in terms of money and privilege over other races. By the nature of race relations, there will be times when there are more minorities than whites in places, and racism can and will result. The rub here is this: do those small "pockets" of minority-on-white racism change the power that white people have in America as opposed to minorities?

The answer is no, unfortunately. And while racism stings and hurts and is a HUGE detriment to a person's quality of life no matter how large or small the scale it's on, the presence of those "pockets" doesn't change the presence of white privilege.

Annnnnnnd the rest of us whites? In the same damned boat with the non-whites screaming about white priviledge.

There is no way to express how untrue this is or how potentially it hurtful it is to those non-whites who are affected by that white privilege. It doesn't affect a "small" percentage of whites. Have Americans had a black president? No; one is running and the vast majority claim "America isn't ready". Can a white person be arrested by the police for driving in the wrong part of town based on their skin color? No. Are the overarching cultural goals set up by the media for whites/displayed in mass media as in large part limited to music, sports, or crime?

I could go on. Social privilege is not the same as economic privilege, and whites have social, macro-scale privilege over all other races virtually everywhere. The fact that there are places where other races have gathered and exercise small-scale prejudice against whites doesn't change that fact.

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Then I guess I have nothing more to say.

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And I'm sorry about that.

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Why be sorry? If you have the evidence, then my point is moot. My own fault for 1) Not knowing what you know and 2) Bringing it up in the first place when really my own common sense should have won out yet again and I should have just kept my mouth shut.

And likewise the result of this discussion. It's no big deal. Difference of opinion, and who knows, I just might end up agreeing with you at some point. I don't right now, but then I'm just now getting into all of this, despite having experienced the above for over a decade, so...we'll see.

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Why should you have kept your mouth shut? People never learn if they never disagree and never ask questions, and this is a pretty important topic.

And really, I'd hazard to be presumptuous and say I know how this barrage of information feels. I've been there before -- "I'm white, but I've had a pretty shitty-to-normal lot in life, have had to endure rough times like everyone else, and now some college-educated hippy bastard is sashaying in and telling me I've been handed everything on a goddamned platter like the Duke of Earl? What the fuck?"

And people's experiences do vary, for certain. It's doubly-hard to understand or swallow if all you've known in your adult life is the opposite of what we're trying to tell you. And like I said -- while it's not true everywhere, it's important to know about this kind of stuff because the only way we'll be able to fight this shit and make it a thing of the past is to know it exists, and from there, decide what to do as a people to make it extinct.

But knowledge, as always, is the first step.

(I still <3 u btw)

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I think that the problem is that I understand that what you are talking about is perpetuated--by a limited priviledge few. And yes, they are white for the most part.

And yeah, whites HAVE been dominant for a long time.

But even mere 'pockets' are an indication that that's changing. And they're very angry pockets a lot of times, which have the potential of repeating our mistakes.

And the problem that I see is that it seems it gets laid solidly at white peoples fight to 'fix it', when it's everyone's problem. And again, I get that yeah, whites are most recent and most widespread (at least in recent history), but again, where's the meeting from the other side?

That's the flaw I see. And part of what set me off, because although I know things need to change, I don't believe that dumping it all at the most recent maurader's doorstep to sort out by themselves is the answer. Which seems to be the expectation.

(No worries, I know you do. Or you'd quit talking to me.)

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what you are talking about is perpetuated--by a limited priviledge few

The privilege I'm speaking of is in no way confined to what I'm guessing you're referring to as (economically) privileged white people. Every white person in America has a social leg-up compared to any other person of non-white heritage you can claim, at least when in the company of other whites. And considering white people are the ones whom are still firmly in positions of power and most often promoted to them due to those racial prejudices, and that will not change until that white privilege is deconstructed.

I totally disagree that the "pockets" are an indication of change in the direction of widespread minority-on-white prejudice. They're an indication of people being righteously and completely validly angry that there are other people in the country getting special treatment by nothing other than the luck of the draw of getting the right skin color, no matter if they've been a bane or a boon to that society or country. They have every right to be pissed off which is probably where most of this prejudice is coming from, though their racist conduct is no more pardonable than any white person's you can name. However, it's important to realize it may be coming from a different place.

And the problem that I see is that it seems it gets laid solidly at white peoples fight to 'fix it', when it's everyone's problem. And again, I get that yeah, whites are most recent and most widespread (at least in recent history), but again, where's the meeting from the other side?

That's something of an ethical SNAFU, to be honest. We as a people lay our prejudices, racism, fears, and all other brands of fuckery you can name on the backs of people for years just because of the color of their skin, then expect them to help us clean up the mess we made when it's done nothing but negatively affect them and their quality of life? I can completely agree it's everyone's problem, but white people -- even if we don't consciously consider ourselves racist -- take part every day in a racist system that directly benefits us. We by nature of the history of absolutely despicable race relations, largely because of white people, in our country have the obligation to at least take the lion's share in helping clean up the mess. And the first step in that, as I said, is recognizing the privilege exists even if we have been socialized to not "see" it in our day to day lives.

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This looks like it was directed, in part, to me. At least, to me it does.

I'm not going to shoot you for this or skin you.

We just don't agree on this sort of thing, in the main. White supremacy to me is something on a sliding scale. I think to you it's a present or not-present thing.

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Actually, it wasn't. It's more directed at, say, the hispanics who won't talk to you if you don't speak spanish, even if they need help, and you're willing to sit there with your few words of the language and try to work it out.

It's directed to the few black male drivers I've had (out of quite a few black males), that when they see a white woman trying to tell then what to do (even though it's part of my job), will just 'uh-huh' at me and do whatever the hell they want to do unless I get right in their face--and even then, the chances are good they'll ignore me anyway. Because hey, if I went after them like I do the white drivers for being rude and not doing their part of the job? I'll get reported for discrimination.

It's directed at the benagali crew I had at the convenience store I worked at before this job who wouldn't do any of the work they were assigned (and I would end up having to do, even though they were cashiers and I was an assistant manager), and yet would complain when the jobs wouldn't get done. And then freak out when they'd get written up by the regional supervisor.

In regards to white supremacy, I think the whole race gets labeled for the sake of a select few--the same whole that gets just as short shafted as the blacks, the chinese, the native americans, or what have you....by the same select few that are shafting them. I don't see people saying 'some of these whites are bad news' when I read stuff, I see 'white supremacy is everywhere' being said. It's very rarely acknowledged that it's a certain portion of the population...or that it's not just the white people doing it.

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Okay, I see where you're directing this. Or to whom you're directing this.

That Bangladeshi crew was lazy and needed to be written up, worked with, and then fired on a person-by-person basis. I've had suck employees that I needed to fire, but because I hadn't been keeping track of their transgressions and weaknesses, I had to be REAL careful of getting rid of without maximizing the business' liability.

The rest of it, if you listen to your patient in the first place and work with them (and the patient communicates and just doesn't get all closed-mouthed), should come easy enough.

Bigotry precludes that. In my experience, bigoted people are more common than those whose good manners' extend to all folk they encounter.

From: (Anonymous)

Yes, they were, but here's the rub; I did write them up for the specifics of what they weren't doing.

It got pushed under the rug because the company didn't want to be seen as being prejudiced. They didn't want it to become a race thing, either (I was the only white working the store). So, their transgressions were downplayed, and none of them got fired. Not until two of them started dipping into the cash drawer and got caught on tape (and I almost got fired for that one since I was the one responsible for counting the cash. I'd come up short, and they'd say that I was taking it when I was counting for the bank because proceedure was one person in a locked room at that point. It became person in a locked room with a camera because we didnt have the staff to do two people counts.)

And I've encountered the opposite, and that's with living in areas with a huge racial mix. But the ones that pull it? Pull it big time.

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Yes, they were, but here's the rub; I did write them up for the specifics of what they weren't doing.

It got pushed under the rug because the company didn't want to be seen as being prejudiced.

That's a pity.

What do you mean with encountering the opposite? And what is being pulled?

From: (Anonymous)

That bigoted people outnumber the not-bigoted. I agree that of you go looking for it, you'll find it, and I agree that in certain places, there's a whole lot of them around, but I don't agree that there's more of them.

Because if there were? we'd be in a lot worse shape in the tolerance thing. We not good, but most folks at least aren't out looking for 'different' people to go after. Just a few very vocal folks.

But by the same token, the few bigots I have had the misfortune of meeting, were REALLY bad.

....Like my mom.

I'll have to tell you THAT story off camera as it were.

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Okay, well, I'll go for the off-camera story later, but I'm telling you, in my experience, and the experience of so many other poc, they don't go looking for bigoted experiences -- white folks keep bringing it.

Part of it isn't looking fuckery. I think that in many cases, it's culturally acceptable for white folks to slight poc. I didn't always think this way, but I've seen it more and more as I've gotten older, and I'm working way harder to manage my emotions and reactions than study rude white folks.

But I think, that privilege, bigotry, racism, and rudeness are related, not synonymous.

I think, I may be more inclined to think along the lines of chiss and rabicam. It seems to me that you think that wrong=wrong. I don't see it that way. But I'm heading home. We'll chat more later.

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I admit that while not up to skinning, I was kinda of eh about the use of white within this. It's obvious that you mean American, which is not purely white. There is no "white" culture. Hell, want to go there, there is no "black" culture.

White culture could include - American, Canadian, Russian, Croatian, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, so on and so forth. Many nations sport what could be called "whites".

As for the having to do this or someone will sue, this is the hospital covering it's ass, not targetting 'whites' to have to change. This is a sue happy nation and most places that deal with the public are legally required, by their insurance companies, to do these things rather than lose their insurance.

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That icon is pure genius.

From: (Anonymous)

It's obvious when you're already caucasian, yeah. Thing is? The people this is meant to pacify are thinking 'white', or 'white supremacy', or as Chiss just pointed out, 'white priviledge', nine times out of ten. If someone makes a faux pas and it goes to court, it tends to be a 'white' person (caucasian) vs another race who tends to be targeted. We don't see a whole lot of 'other' race vs. 'other' race in the news in the US, or presented in a racial way, but if there's a caucasion person involved, and the other person can claim another race as the reason for the problem, it's all over the news.

And yeah, the hospital is covering it's ass....which it wouldn't have to do if folks were thinking "I am american" instead of "I am white/black/indian/japanese/etc"...which is where a good portion of my irritation comes in. They are thinking in cultural terms. As in 'because of my culture from where I or my family came from, I expect to be treated in these certain different ways' rather than working on a common ground of simple respect.

Do you live here? Then shouldn't you first thought be 'I am American'? We do have a culture; it changes, but it's there.

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It is assumed that I am either caucasian or not American due to my beliefs? That is how this sounds.

I might also point out that just because you live in America, it doesn't make you either an American, or white/caucasian.

I missed where coming to America, as well, meant you had to give up your "parent" culture either.

From: (Anonymous)

And you missed the part where I said I don't expect people to give up theirs, either.

But when you're on an open ground with more than one culture, and everyone is insisting on their home culture as the way to be treated instead of a common ground culture that everyone is equal in when dealing with each other, then you have problems.

And this is what it's all about. Along with white people being the favored targets for being bigots because they were the most recent race to repeat the mistakes that all races make.

I don't disagree that education is needed; my problem is the assumption that only the white folks need the education, along with the idea that you know maybe we ought to concentrate more on being americans than white black japanese, etc. If this is going to be an equal thing, then everyone needs to get off the damned high horse, everyone needs to go through the education process, and everyone really ought to start thinking in 'we' terms. Instead what we're getting is tide-turning and going the other way.

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But this isn't open ground. This is a stolen country to begin with, with a reputation for enslaving people. Even today. It's just now our own people.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the hospital covering their own ass. I mean, if you just look at it that way, it's a corporate thing and not a pesonal attack. because it's not. It's covering their own ass. Then, if someone sues, it's not on them but others.

But why should we concentrate on being Americans? I don't understand that. I'm native/welsh, born in america and practice witchcraft with roman and egyptian beliefs. Yes, I'm American but I see no reason to focus on being part of a culture that I dislike. I work to change it, truthfully. Perhaps that's why I see no reason to force others to be part of it.

There isn't a we. Even in other countries there is no true we. Irish Protestants against Catholics. Japanese males against women. It happens in every country. There are lines. People want an identity. They want to feel as if they have something that is theirs. Embracing their culture is very often something people do to stay true to themselves.

You're holding what the CORPORATION wants against the people. This isn't some black person telling you to understand them. Or a Japanese man upset you didn't bow right. It's a company, a highly susceptable insurance backed company, covering their ass. An American is not likely to sue because a flag wasn't waved in their face or some shit.

From: (Anonymous)

And...I'm scottish and irish, which is nice, but I was also born in New Jersey, have lived in two other states, and whether or not my ancestors helped to 'steal' this land, I'm here now and this is the only home that I know. Every bit of land, except for the first little patch where humans first lived, has been 'stolen' from other humans--that includes your native and welsh ancestor. The first came across the Bearing Sea. The second from up north. Neither race originated in the place you identify them with. And the wlesh, at least, had to deal with whatever natives were already there.

Why should we concentrate on being Americans?

Because we all live here, maybe? Because the more we go 'I live on this spot of land, but I want nothing to do with the people I share it with', the more likely the place will fall apart completely and we'll end up with warring factions. Again. Which does no race any good at all And this time, there's no new land to run to when we want to get away from the next big and ugly fight.

Because there are lines, and maybe if people would quit making them, we wouldn't have to 'cover our asses'.

I realize that cynicism over the nature of the human race is pretty damned common, but by the same token, if we don't work to change that, it will indeed always be that way. Making more lines will not change it. Erasing it might, and it's about the only thing we really haven't tried yet.

And again, I have no problem with people embracing their culture, but to be honest, embracong what you are, and learning to deal with people outside of your own circle are two different things. And I honestly believe that yes, when you are dealing with the world at large, there should be a common ground that isn't influenced by culture or race, or at least one that can handle 'hey, we're different, but I'm not going to be an ass and get all butt hurt because you don't know how to treat me according to my culture'.

And yeah, before you point that out too, I realize that people cling to their identities so hard that most will not consent to that. But I still feel it's worth striving for.

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I'm not going to go around in these circles. I'll be the first to admit that I would rather not associate with most in this country. Culture aside, I don't see most on my level and I have no desire to lower myself.

Egotistical? Hell yeah. Bitchy? Yep. I don't deny that. Culture aside, most don't want to associate with everyone/anyone. This isn't cynicism over the human race. This is setting your own bounds. And life MUST have bounds.

Now, if you're working in a place like a hospital, then you have to accept the crap. People are dicks. Suck it up and do your job. This is not the full sum of who you are. It's a job.

That said, having read the other comments, is it possible that the handbook/training was given to those that a supervisor felt needed them? I mean, otherwise, it's discrimination and you should be calling the ACLU about it.

From: (Anonymous)

There's a difference between setting boundaries and looking down on other folks and their ability to not be assholes to each other if they would just bother a little bit.

Oh, I do 'suck it up and do my job'. In fact...I think this is the first time I've complained about my job other than the occasional 'where is my truck' and 'god I'm wiped'. Other than that? I work hard, keep my trap shut, don't gossip, and don't try fucking with folks.

...well, okay, except the drivers that have a problem with a girl doing a man's job. Them I usually smile at and tell them how long I've been doing the job they think I cannot do.

And I've kept it for close to a decade. So...must be doing something right.

Honestly? It's usually the other folks that are rude. Hanging up in the middle of sentences. Getting angry and impatient when I run down the list of questions of things I need to know to put down for certain items before I can take them up. Cutting people off in the middle of sentences. And don't get written up for it, either.

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I repeat, go to the ACLU then. If you want there to be change, actively work to enact it.

From: (Anonymous)

I do. I don't go there, but I do my own work.

From: (Anonymous)

I should make that clearer--we have an ethics line.

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Y'know, if you'd said right off the bat that only the white nurses were given the manual, I think you'd have fewer people disagreeing with you (eyebrowing over the combative tone, yes, but not disagreeing). However, while that is pretty darn outrageous, the logic of a lot of your comments seems to boil down to, "Individual ____ people have been racist to me/taken advantage of efforts to be culturally sensitive, therefore there's no reason I, as a white American person, should have to make extra efforts to be sensitive to ____ people in general." Which, um, is not logical, sorry, and has next to nothing to do with how you were actually wronged by being given this manual.

Also, in several places you seem to be conflating cultural dominance with numerical dominance. And assuming that every other white person in America has had the same cultural education as you. (No, it's not obvious to many people that 'African-American' is largely not a preferred term.)

From: (Anonymous)

Actually, I try very hard (current fit not withstanding). I do feel I have a responsbility to do so.

But I also feel it's everyone's responsibility and not just mine. for some reason people are glossing over that.

I'll use the same comment that gets used on me.

There are books, there are libraries, and to be honest? These are nurses...you know--went to college?

I would assume they had SOME sort of education, definitely better than mine was, since I only had standard education plus two years of community college.

And there is a thing known as common sense.

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Well, like I said, I think fewer people would be disagreeing with you if you'd couched your argument like that in the first place, instead of a) being fairly contemptuous of the idea of white privilege, which doesn't leave people coming from my perspective predisposed to cut you much slack, and b) appearing to genuinely make the argument that because there are non-white people who are racist, white people are being unfairly scapegoated for racial problems in American culture today. Which comes across to me as a fairly self-serving argument. I sympathize, because I can't say that white liberal guilt is a whole lotta fun (and I only have a half-dose), but even so.

Also, you are severely underinformed if you don't know that minority activist groups aren't fully aware that they have to promote inter-minority friendliness as well as combating institutionalized racism.

Common sense is culturally bound. What seems common to you is unfathomable to someone else. College is only a good place to learn cultural sensitivity if there's a basic level of cultural diversity on campus in the first place; you're conflating book-learning with culture-learning.

I'm not saying that you haven't been wronged because you're white; if I've understood the situation correctly, you have been. Where we disagree is that you seem to think because of a bunch of (almost certainly white!) hospital executives making a boneheaded move, that the whole premise is flawed. Consider, in addition, that your non-white colleagues have been wronged as well - they're being deprived of the opportunity to educate themselves because those executives assumed that only white people would need the manual.

From: (Anonymous)

Hmn. oops on me for being human, then. That's about all I can say to that first part. Mea culpa?

And actually, yeah I do think whites get the most shit. Even when looking for a different perspective, I rarely find it. By the same token, if you have places I cna go to look, I'd be happy to add that to the education I have.

to ne honest, I don't tink things like 'be polite, ask if you;re not sure if you're doing the right thing by a person from another culture (or volunteer some if you are that other person), and treating people like human beings is all that different between cultures. The particulars are, but there are just as many flying dicks as there are people who will sit down with you and explain what's what...if people bother. That doesn't need a classroom--just the willingness to sit down and talk to each other.

Consider, in addition, that your non-white colleagues have been wronged as well - they're being deprived of the opportunity to educate themselves because those executives assumed that only white people would need the manual.

...I think I did, in one of the other responses. Like I said, I think everyone should have to take the class...just like if they're going to cover other races, they should at least cover some sort of cultural differences for white folks. Again, I don't disagree with educating folks...just that it should be everyone and not just certain folks. Equality and equal and respectful treatment (which is supposedly what this would be for) doesn't work if it isn't done for everyone.

Anyway, thank you for being polite, by the way. ^^ I may or may not be out of my mind for how I feel (and how well or badly I put things), but thank you for truly being polite.

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Specify your words very carefully. When you say, "Whites get the most shit," do you mean the most shit about how they shouldn't be racist, or the most race-based crap in general? The first I would call technically correct but willfully blind, the second actively deluded. Sorry, but I don't know how to couch that in more polite terms.

You may find some benefit in this (http://www.ipoaa.com/tim_wise.htm) essay, written by a white American for white Americans. Your comments don't seem to distinguish very well between institutionalized racism and peer-to-peer racism, and frankly, the distinction makes all the difference in the world in understanding why "everyone always seems to expect the white people to stop being racist, first." Naturally - because, at least until the very recent past, if that, white racism had the most power behind it and was the most dangerous. Overcompensation is regrettable, frustrating, and potentially worth contacting the ACLU over; it's not really what I'd call oppression, though.

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I honestly don't hear 'they shouldn't be racist', but I do hear, constantly, that 'they are racist'. Or deluded, which gets equated to the same thing.

I guess it depends on where you live then. And that I will give you. Experiences do shape a person's perception of the world. But so does looking past them.

I will read the essay, promise and thank you.

Yes, they are indeed the most recent example. My question though is this; how does expecting whites to be 'first' rectify the problem? Wouldn't it make more sense, if we, as the human race, really wanted racism to stop...to just stop, regardless of your race? Why wait for someone else, even you enemy? When has that ever worked? That's like the two kids joshing on each other to go first. If no one takes the first step, it never happens. And if you continue to wait for the other guy to do it before you...it might never happen.

Proactive action. If you gotta wait for the other guy because 'they did it first' or even 'they did it last'...you're just going to go in circles with that argument. And nothing changes at that point. Just repeats.

...I never mentioned the word 'oppression'. Inequality and inequal treatment yes, but that's not the same thing. The first is actively undermining other peoples attempts on a consistant basis and silencing them, the second is exclusion from the same treatment as other people are getting, but not necessarily shutting them up.

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Or, possibly when one automatically equates terms like "deluded" or "doesn't know what they're talking about" with "racist," then what appears is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As for your why-should-we-go-first argument, perhaps I should clarify that I mean "most vitally" rather than "first in time." Furthermore, your reasoning is - oh, you're not going to like this - from a privileged viewpoint, to be blunt about it. It's easy to say, "Well, we should just all decide to be equal together, now, and forget about this race stuff," when you have largely escaped from the worst damages of racism and can afford to be trusting like that.

But honestly, you answered your own question:

If no one takes the first step, it never happens.

Exactly.

Maybe "oppression" is the wrong word, but the way in which you blame minorities and immigrants for a bureaucratic snafu which, however race-based, was probably caused by other white people gave me the distinct impression that you feel threatened.

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ooookay. We've gone from polite to 'you could never understand because you're white' in three seconds flat. Wow.

By 'priviledged', do you mean because I'm white (yes), middle classed (lower-classed here, I average 21,000 a year in pay at best), will automatically win arguments based on race (nope), or some other definition of the word I don't know about?

Anyway...yeah. I see your point, and it's exactly the one I see whether I say anything or watch people just toss all of this about.

Wait, I didn't blame minorities for that book. I didn't actually *blame* a specific person for that book...but that's where we're going, isn't it?

Actually, I don't feel threatened. What I feel is sad, because what is getting thrown at me at this point is the same shit that my ancestors (them, not me), threw at others.

Which again, adds fuel to the fire rather than solve or fix or correct anything.

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Um ... what? Where did I ever say that? Please note: I am close enough to white for the distinction not to matter in the context of this discussion, so it would be downright nonsensical for me to say such a thing.

By "privileged" I mean this (http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html). One can also refer to other forms of privilege, e.g. male privilege, class privilege, etc. Having privilege in this context does not mean that the privileged person is on easy street, but that of two otherwise identical people, one privileged and one not, the privileged person is likely to have had an easier time of it in our society. Maybe a small difference, maybe a large.

Wait, I didn't blame minorities for that book. I didn't actually *blame* a specific person for that book... / Actually, I don't feel threatened.

Sorry, but that's how you're coming across by directing your ire and frustration at those ____ people who shirked at work and didn't get punished for it rather than discussing, first and foremost, the confused and ignorant bureaucrats who let them shirk and who tossed that manual at you.

Anyway...yeah. I see your point, and it's exactly the one I see whether I say anything or watch people just toss all of this about.

Has it occurred to you that maybe this is because you

What I feel is sad, because what is getting thrown at me at this point is the same shit that my ancestors (them, not me), threw at others.

Okay, we're done. That you could actually compare this discussion to historical acts of hatred and violence with an apparently straight face shows that we have nothing more to say to each other.

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In retrospect, I can see how you misunderstood my first phrase - what I really meant was something like, "Well, if every time you see phrases like 'deluded' or, guessing what other people might have said, 'don't know what you're talking about' to 'racist,' then yeah, you're going to see a bunch of people calling you racist. But that's not what those words mean.' In my frustration I worded things very, very clumsily, and I do apologize for that.

None of this changes how mindbogglingly self-centered and willfully callous I find it to compare an internet discussion, however heated (please note: it's really not), to murder, torture, rape, forced relocation, and economic suppression - just for starters.

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...except I'm not the one comparing our discussion to rape, torture, murder, forced relocation, etc. It seems, from my POV, that you keep reading into what I say and just keep pissing yourself off over it, in which case, yeah, we really do not have anything more to say to each other. As soon as it starts getting into personal judgment calls on any discussion, it's ceased to be a discussion and more of a 'look here, you idiot, listen to me and admit I'm right'.

...which is not really all that conducive to any discussion.

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